interview

ANDREW COHEN: I'd like to begin by asking you: Who is the most enlightened person you know of? Who has touched your heart the most and in whom do you have the greatest faith—alive or dead?

KAISA PUHAKKA: The Buddha would be one. Ramana Maharshi comes to mind. And I would say that I get that feeling from some of the Tibetan masters. And in the contemporary world, H.H. the Dalai Lama and Sasaki Roshi.

AC: Okay. So now what I want you to do is to imagine—even though I know this is impossible—but anyway, just for fun, imagine that you're some conglomeration of the Buddha, H.H. the Dalai Lama, Ramana Maharshi and Sasaki Roshi. Imagine that you have embraced their minds. You have become one with their minds and one with their enlightenment—and one with their profound wisdom that comes from beyond the mind.

KP: Alright. Sounds wonderful.

AC: Kaisa Puhakka has stepped aside and now she's just an empty vehicle for enlightened mind. So now, Enlightened One, I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

The first question is: Transpersonal psychologists seem to be in a double bind. On one hand, they have become experts in using the mind to conceptualize, communicate and facilitate the subtleties of the unfoldment of the evolution of consciousness. On the other hand, in order to truly know the real meaning of the spiritual path, we all have to be willing to give up not only the need to know but also the need to be the one who knows. Enlightened One, what do you have to say about this intriguing double bind that the transpersonal psychologists are in? What do you have to say about the enormous challenge of renouncing the great temptation of the intellectual and personal empowerment of transpersonal psychology's all-encompassing, profoundly clarifying, intellectually satisfying theories of human development?

KP: The predicament that the transpersonal theorists find themselves in is kind of a heightened human predicament—the human predicament being that we really want to know. It's very hard to legislate against this instinct to want to know, or this desire or longing to want to know, which is very fundamental and has to do with our desire to touch directly what is real. And so this is just one other expression of it.

There is something very funny about this, of course, because, as you said, in order to really touch enlightenment directly or be enlightened, you have to give up the need to know. So how do you get out of that? It's a very profound predicament. Because if somebody tells you, "Just give up the need to know and that's how you'll get there"—it ain't gonna work.

AC: So, what would you say to transpersonal psychologists? What would you tell them from your perspective of enlightened mind?

KP: What I would tell them is that in making maps, as they do—they characterize their theories as maps—if you do it like a child who is building sand castles, then there's nothing wrong with it. The child in his or her most creative mode is excited when the waves come in and wipe out the castle; the child screams with joy as the whole thing crumbles. Then they get the chance to build another one. If we have the appreciation that these maps are something that we have fun doing and that stimulates our minds, but that there are always an infinite number of other ways of drawing maps, then there's nothing wrong with the map-making activity, just as there's nothing wrong with the child playing in the sand.

Now the trouble with the map making is when one takes one's map very seriously and says, "Well, this is the correct road map, and there's no other map that is as good as this one." That's when you are implicitly making the claim that you actually know the territory, that you have walked it, and that there's some kind of correspondence between the territory and the map. As soon as the map making ceases to be fun and play, as soon as we take the maps too seriously, I think it actually becomes a hindrance to walking the terrain. If you are reading a map when you're walking, you're missing everything along the way. As Sasaki Roshi says, "You're running around thinking that there's some kind of a spiritual path or great way laid out in front of you like a road. You are fools. There is no road in front of you. The great way comes into being as you walk." There is no road that is ready-made, let alone a map that will describe the road. The road itself comes into being in the walking.

AC: And besides your advice on making the maps, what would you tell them?

KP: Besides being map makers, as human beings who are concerned with becoming enlightened, they also need to sometimes just do the walking.

AC: Without the maps?

KP: Yes, everybody needs to do the walking without the maps.

AC: Enlightened One, do you think that because of their professional role, there is a strong potential in the ego of the transpersonal psychologist to take refuge in knowing in a way that protects them from the raw, undefended vulnerability of not knowing or having no idea? What I mean to say is: Do you think that it's possible that the subtle, comprehensive and all-inclusive developmental theories of transpersonal psychology could be, from a certain point of view, the most sophisticated ego defense mechanism ever evolved?

KP: Well, certainly it has the potential to be a very powerful way of making you feel comfortable that you really know the lay of the land and also that you have all but arrived.

AC: Do you think that the challenge of letting go, for the transpersonal psychologist, could potentially be that much more difficult because, in their case, there is that much more to let go of? Indeed, the direct experience of profound letting go, of having to radically abandon identification with knowing or being the one who knows, could be that much more terrifying?

KP: Yes, that is true. Though I find that basically to be true of all intellectual-type people. With them it's the philosophies or intellectual constructions that get in the way, and with other people it's something else. But certainly, here the irony of it is heightened because here we have people who essentially are seeking to free themselves from all these trappings—whereas other people may not have that as a goal. In wanting to pursue freedom and enlightenment, the theories become the trappings, and they become very, very powerful trappings.