interview

WIE: Brother Wayne, you feel very strongly about the tragedy of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and are one of the leading Christian spokespeople for the cause of the Tibetan people as well as a personal friend of the Dalai Lama. You've gone so far as to say that the response of the world's spiritual leaders to the situation in Tibet is the critical test of our times, "a test that will measure the mettle of our planet's spiritual leadership." This is quite a bold statement. Why do you feel this way?

WAYNE TEASDALE: Let me clarify. It is equally true that the tragedy in Rwanda is a test, because it's a challenge to be able to have that kind of concern for people in Africa, or in Kosovo, or in the Middle East, and so forth. But there's something unique about the Tibetan situation. There's such a parallel between what is happening to the Tibetans and what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust. And now there's an opportunity for the world and the spiritual leaders to respond. That's number one. Number two: The Tibetan struggle is a nonviolent struggle. This is not true of these other struggles. The one between the Palestinians and the Israelis is fraught with hatred, violence, vengeance, and incredible irrationality, and also, both sides have many advocates in other nations. But the Tibetans don't. Their nonviolent struggle is a continuation of the ideal that Gandhi put forth, which is an incredibly important resource. I really think that what Gandhi did is a form of revelation. I believe that through his life and teachings, the Divine gave us some vital resources and skills that are going to serve our planet for millennia. The example of the Dalai Lama and the struggle of the Tibetans continue and deepen and reinforce what was gained through Gandhi, and therefore, the Tibetan cause must be supported. And then thirdly, this is an incredibly precious culture. It's reached a very high point and we mustn't lose it.

WIE: How do you feel that taking a stand with the situation in Tibet will galvanize the world's conscience?

WT: Well, let us say, for instance, that the Vatican gets off the fence and takes a leadership role. It will focus the world's attention, and slowly governments will begin to realize how serious this is in terms of the moral development of the planet. We can't have business as usual; we have to solve this. The religions coming together would be a powerful step forward in bringing this tragedy to an end. I believe, in the fullest sense, what I said before about this being a test. I don't mean that it's just a challenge. I mean it is a test.

WIE: You've said that if we fail, if we don't respond, then it's a sign of a real lack of evolution on a moral and spiritual level.

WT: Yes. Individuals may be capable of evolution but maybe not the whole of humanity, as represented by institutions like the Catholic Church. They just don't seem to have that moral level of awareness. Still, there are some voices in the Vatican that are looking for a new vision, and I think that the Church could be extremely effective and influential if it put its genius of organization to the service of the interfaith movement for justice, ecology, and peace.

WIE: You passionately advocate the coming together of individuals from different spiritual traditions as an essential step toward solving the pressing problems of our times. Why do you believe that interfaith dialogue can bring about global change, and how do you envision it working on a spiritual and practical level?

WT: So many of the wars in history, thousands and thousands of them for the past five, six, seven thousand years, have been related to differences in Truth claims. If we can evolve beyond that problem, then I think there's some chance that we could retire the whole institution of war and begin to focus on the peaceful evolution of humanity. If the ecological crisis, for example, is to be solved and if we are to promote genuine justice and thus bring real peace to the planet—and with it the possibility of improving lives on every level, not just economically, socially, and politically, but spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually—then, just on a practical level, we need to have all of the religions working together.

I feel that slowly the interfaith movement is replacing the old habits of mutual isolation, hostility, competition, conflict, and ignorance of one another's traditions with habits of mutual trust, mutual respect, and friendship.

WIE: In your book, The Mystic Heart, you write about how deep mystical experience will engender the depth of care and perspective that will enable us to truly respond to the crisis facing the world, to the needs of the whole. Can you speak about the relationship between mystical experience and the arising of compassion?

WT: Well, in my experience in the mystical life, I find myself becoming more and more aware of the Source as "inherently warmhearted." The vast consciousness that is the Divine is not a cold analytical intelligence—it emanates from its very core a concern. Heidegger said that the essence of being is concern, and this is what many of the traditions have tried to communicate, even the Buddhist tradition. The Buddha said that once a person lets go of the focus on self-interest, then they see that all is emptiness and all is compassion. And that compassion, that ultimate concern that Heidegger is talking about, that agapic or selfless love, is the connectivity of all sentient beings. It's the glue that holds it all together.

WIE: Are you saying that this profound care for the whole will naturally arise from the realization of the Source, or from what Buddhists call "emptiness"?

WT: Yes, absolutely.

WIE: The teachings of Jesus present an interesting challenge to the interfaith movement. While Jesus preached compassion and tolerance, he himself was first and foremost concerned with defending the truth. He raged at the Jewish priests who were destroying true spirituality through their corruption, and rather than sitting down with them in dialogue, he stormed into their temples and overturned the tables as a statement of his uncompromising stand. In the spiritual endeavor, if the goal is first and foremost ecumenical tolerance, then it's likely that such a broad net will be cast that important distinctions will not be made and the result will be compromise on the most crucial matters. How do you reconcile the movement to accommodate all religions with the imperative to stand for what is true?