BG: Because my understanding of it is that when one comes from that place of emptiness, then one is full of this passion for life and for the end of suffering. And the actions that arise out of that emptiness are going to be actions that are trying to reduce suffering.

AC: Would you say the reason is that in that emptiness there is freedom from ego or self-concern, and when we're in a state of egolessness, or freedom from self-concern, there will be a spontaneous arising of compassion?

BG: Yes. But you know, "ego" is a tricky term. I tend to use the word "ego" to refer to the set of conditioning arising from our concept of who we are. I'll put it this way: I haven't met anyone—whatever degree of enlightenment they say they have or the world says they have—who doesn't have some set of conditioning or some ego structure.

AC: But what if we refer to ego strictly as being pride or arrogant self-importance or the deeply conditioned need to see one's self as standing apart from or separate from the whole?

BG: With that definition, I can agree with you. Ego will fall away then.

AC: So would you say then that emptiness would be synonymous with, or not separate from, that falling away and that, as a result of that falling away, compassion would spontaneously arise?

BG: Yes.

AC: And that that would be part of the miracle of who we really are and of awakening itself?

BG: Yes. And I personally am moved toward the word "love" rather than "compassion." Because compassion, for me, has a little bit of a judgmental sense. For each of us, what we see as compassion and noncompassion is different. I see the state of love arising out of that egoless state, and that's generally looked on as compassion—but not always.

AC: So would you say that love, in the way you're using it, is not personal?

BG: Yes. In our three tenets of the Peacemaker Community, the first is not knowing, the second is bearing witness, and for the third I use the word "healing," which again, I don't like so much. That word could have been compassion; I think compassion is the more typical Buddhist term to use. These are just semantics in some sense, but my own inclination is to talk about the healing of one's self and the world as that third tenet that arises naturally out of the first two. That's really a state of love, and out of that love, action arises. And I guess the actions themselves, which are the function of that love, we could call compassion. I call it "healing." The love arises and compassionate actions happen. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to fix the situation. Because my feeling is that the world at every moment is the perfect world as it is. It's not like something is broken that I'm going to put together. But I'm going to work toward making a more loving situation.

AC: That's a very delicate distinction you're making.

BG: It is.

AC: Because that is the challenge of enlightenment. On one hand, everything is already full and perfect and inherently free as it is, and yet at the same time—

BG: Yes, but if you're attached to that—then you may not act.

AC: But aren't both true? Isn't everything already full and complete and already free, and at the same time, isn't there an overwhelming amount of suffering that urgently needs to be responded to in every moment?

BG: Exactly. Some people experience that first stage and get caught there. They think, "There's nothing to do."

AC: Yes. And may even use it as an excuse not to have to do anything. That's how many people actually squelch the expression of their own conscience, their own humanity. That's a pretty bad place to be.

BG: That's sort of where I started—trying to encourage people not to remain in that place. There's a state in Japanese Zen that's called the "Cave of Satan." It's that place where you just stay—because there's nothing to do. And you can get in that state and it can be an overwhelming experience. But the point is to kick the person out of that cave.

AC: It's a place of complacency and self-satisfaction.

BG: Yes. I had that experience once in 1969 in a sesshin, a meditation retreat. I was working with a teacher; Koryu Roshi was his name. He was one of Maezumi Roshi's teachers. I was working on my first koan with Koryu Roshi, and I got into a very, very deep state. I got into this place where I didn't want to leave, and Maezumi Roshi pushed me out of it.

AC: Was it a very blissful place?

BG: Very blissful.

AC: Was there anything specific that he said to you about why you had to get out?

BG: No, when he saw me, somehow he knew. Of course, he was talking with Koryu Roshi so he had a sense of where I was at, and he also could tell by my movements or whatever. He just broke me out of it. He stood behind me when I was in meditation and in that state, and just screamed in a way that pushed me right out of that place into a much deeper space, a space of acting.

AC: We could probably find a contrast there with some interpretations of Vedanta, where it could seem like the whole goal was to—

BG: Get into a deep trance.

AC: Yes. To get out of here.

BG: Sometimes we've used the expression "samadhi freaks" for people who want to get to that place because it can be very beautiful. But for others it can be very terrifying.

AC: Because it's too much?

BG: Yeah.

AC: If the Buddha were alive today, do you think he would no longer advocate the intense practice of meditation and renunciation of the world in order to experience transcendence and nirvana? In light of the present crisis, do you think he would instead advocate the practice of meditation in service of passionate and committed social activism, as you do?

BG: Well, you know, from an egocentric standpoint, I would say sure. The one thing we know about him—or at least that we get from the texts—is that he was certainly very broad. So he would incorporate all of the things going on in his time and all of the traditions.

AC: But there seemed to be a big emphasis in his teaching on leaving the world.

BG: Well, that was part of the Indian culture of that time. My sense—and I can only say this because of who I am—is that he would be moving in the bigger world. Like His Holiness the Dalai Lama—I think he's a beautiful example.

AC: What's the source of the extraordinary love, passion, courage, and profound commitment that you have to alleviate the suffering of others?

BG: I don't see them as others. It's pretty egocentric—I want to have less suffering!