Yogi Amrit Desai Interview, 'Yoga, Ego and Purification'

introduction

I had always wondered if the practice of yoga had anything to do with ego death. I have been teaching the path to liberation for the last fourteen years and before that I had several teachers, but my first guru was a true master of yoga. His life was a literal embodiment of the Bhagavad Gita, the bible for any aspiring yogi, and he could, simply through taking one breath, dive deep into the mystical ecstatic trance of nirvikalpa samadhi, considered to be the highest attainment on the path of yoga. Indeed, he was a true master who could at will transcend body consciousness—a feat few have equaled in any time. And yet, in this world, the amount of chaos he attracted to himself and all those who gathered near him never ceased to amaze me. And then there was the renowned master Swami Muktananda, who in his time was considered to be the greatest yogi of them all and whose powerful transmission of shaktipat awakened the dormant kundalini energy in hundreds of thousands of Western bodies, but who disillusioned multitudes of seekers worldwide with revelations of his "tantric" escapades with the young daughters of his disciples. In those days (the late seventies/early eighties), I also heard intriguing reports of the incredible experiences that were occurring for many in the presence of Yogi Amrit Desai.

Yogi Desai originally came to America in 1960 to study fine art and design in Philadelphia, after which he worked in various design and textile firms while pursuing a career as a talented artist. A close disciple since his youth of Swami Shri Kripalvanandji, a master of kundalini yoga, Yogi Desai began teaching the then largely unknown art of hatha yoga in his new home of Philadelphia soon after arriving in America. The school of yoga he started became so successful that he eventually abandoned his career as an artist to devote himself wholeheartedly to teaching. It was not until 1969 that Yogi Desai received formal shaktipat initiation from his guru, and it was then, in the early seventies, that he went from being a successful yoga teacher to a true guru in his own right, a master of kundalini yoga who had the ability to awaken the kundalini-shakti in others. Many experienced powerful awakenings through being in his presence. One man described his experience as follows:
My body filled with a brilliant white light, and I allowed myself to be absorbed in it. I felt that my life, as I previously had known it, literally came to an end. My ego identity became meaningless; there was no time; past and future did not exist. All that existed was pure light and pure bliss. I was content to remain in this state forever. When I opened my eyes again, I noticed that my body had bent forward: my forehead was touching the floor. I do not remember assuming that position. I was actually bowing down to Yogi Desai. I had never bowed down to anyone in my life, but some inner unknown force had prompted me. I knew I wasn't bowing to Amrit Desai, but rather to my own higher self, which he had helped me to see.

Yogi Desai founded an ashram in Sumneytown, Pennsylvania, and as word of his dramatic effect on people spread far and wide, he soon was invited to teach all over America and Canada. After several years, Yogi Desai began to decrease the focus of his teaching work on shakti experiences and began to once again put more emphasis on hatha yoga and the principles of holistic living. "I eventually stopped the intensive outward flow of the shakti energy because so many were not ready to handle the intensity of the physical, mental and emotional purification that it brings," he said. "I realized that my disciples needed more grounding, more clarity in their thoughts and emotions, and more purification in their bodies before moving to this deeper level." He now focused his teaching on a new style of yoga that he created, which he called "Kripalu Yoga," the basis of which is a gentle practice of yoga postures supported by the breath in an unbroken flow. In this new style of practice, the cultivation of a detached, conscious awareness of the process itself is the goal rather than the perfection of the postures or breathing techniques. Then, in 1979 he opened the Kripalu Center for Holistic Health in Lenox, Massachusetts. According to his biography, Yogi Desai felt that "holistic health would be the most effective way to introduce yoga to people who needed it but were not yet open to its more traditional forms. The services of the center would incorporate the teachings of hatha yoga and raja yoga, adapted to the modern Western approach to healthy living." The center soon became a phenomenal success, eventually welcoming more than a thousand visitors a month to its facilities, which were staffed by nearly three hundred full-time yogi residents. The rest is history.

Yogi Desai, who himself was married, encouraged strict celibacy in his disciples. In 1994, a scandal erupted that tore his community apart when it was discovered that the master had not been living his own teaching and had in secret been sleeping with several of his students. Disgraced and literally thrown out of his own ashram, he left behind him a wake of intense anger and profound disillusionment.

As shock waves penetrated throughout the American yoga community, I remember my own disappointment, for I had seen Yogi Desai as the last of the few modern pioneer masters of yoga in the West who, up until that point anyway, had remained free from scandal. What is going on here? I found myself asking over and over again. These great men were true masters after all, men who not only had experienced glorious heights of bliss and ecstasy that most only dream about, but in this case, who also had the power to transmit that experience to others. These men had also, through the cultivation of unusual self-discipline, mastered the art of concentration, the very foundation of true yogic attainment. One would think that that powerful combination—mastery in self-discipline, concentration and spiritual ecstasy—should result in a very high degree of self-control, detachment, awareness and profound spiritual conscience. And yet, much of the time, the norm for these masters seemed too often to be one of shockingly less than conventional levels of self-control, detachment, awareness and . . . "So, what gives?" I kept thinking to myself. I also was frustrated because now Yogi Desai had given all the doubters yet another reason to have little faith in our power to transcend our lower instincts and become living embodiments of radiant spiritual purity in this dark and cynical world. For many years, in my own teaching work, I had received a lot of flack for daring to say that it was possible to become an expression of absolute simplicity in this painfully divided human world, and events like this made me feel more and more alone. After all, I had discovered that the cynics, many of whom wear spiritual clothing, write spiritual books and lead seminars, like it when a master falls on his face. Why? Because it lets them off the hook.

When the opportunity arose to speak with Yogi Desai about the topic, What is ego?, for this issue of WIE, I leapt at the chance. What would the master have to say about this all-important question and its relationship to the ultimate goal of spiritual practice, considering everything that he himself has gone through? Did his experience verify my suspicions that yogic mastery didn't necessarily equate with death of the ego, the perennial enemy of enlightenment? And if that was true, what did it mean about yoga as a path to enlightenment? What did it mean about the ultimate significance of mastery and its relationship to ego death?

Yogi Desai, after a period of retirement, has resumed his teaching career and is now once again growing in popularity and gaining success and recognition as a master of yoga. He travels around the world and teaches as he once did, and was recently invited by Deepak Chopra to give a presentation at his millennium celebration. Yogi Desai was also asked to be the leading spiritual teacher at a new ashram that Chopra plans to found.

interview

ANDREW COHEN: It is said that all spiritual practice in pursuit of liberation is solely for the purpose of slaying the ego. From your perspective as a master of yoga, could you please define what the ego is?

AMRIT DESAI: The ego is really the inborn sense of "I am," and that is something that nobody can avoid. The sense of "I am" is an identification that has different expressions through the evolutionary stages. The first experience of "I am" is when we directly identify with the body and is connected with the survival of the body. That's how it begins. And then I realize that I have a body, but I'm not my body. Then I realize that I have a mind, but I'm not my mind. I have my emotions, but I'm not my emotions. I have my self-concepts, but I'm not the concepts I have about myself. I have opinions, but I'm not my opinions. It's an evolutionary process, an evolutionary journey of ego. Ego is a sense of "I am" as an individual being, which nobody can deny. Ego is not something that is useless or that should be gotten rid of. It needs to be purified by clearly realizing who I really am.

AC: Can you please describe how that purification takes place on the path of yoga?

AD: In Ashtanga yoga, or eight-limbed yoga, there is the practice of the moral and ethical codes of conduct (yamas and niyamas), yogic postures (asanas), breath control (pranayama) and a proper, balanced, simple, conducive lifestyle. This is what creates the appropriate conditions so that the internal environment can be purified and so that naturally you begin to vibrate at progressively subtler frequencies. And then that makes certain stratas of life that are at a much more subtle level, which cannot be grasped intellectually or biologically, begin to come within your reach. It is the purification of the body, mind and heart.

AC: Yogi Desai, I want to ask you an intriguing question: What does it mean to have no shadow? I understand that your guru, Bapuji, was supposed to have been a truly remarkable being. What I want to know is this: Do you believe that it's possible for anyone to ultimately destroy the ego, which means to purify the vehicle of ego tendencies and motivations to such a degree that they thereby become truly empty and finally free from narcissistic self-concern and selfish actions? Do you think it's possible to have no shadow in this way?

AD: Yes, it is possible. And it has been proven by many great masters who reached that state. It is not the annihilation of "I am," but of the false identification that follows "I am"—the false identification with the self-image, self-concepts, belief systems, personal biases and fears and attachments. It is a letting go of who I am not. It is a discovery process, a letting go process; it's not an acquiring process.

AC: There are many well-known therapists who would say that it's not possible to not have a shadow. But I've always felt that if it wasn't possible to not have a shadow, then enlightenment really wouldn't mean anything. Whatever it ultimately means to be fully enlightened, I have always assumed that that would imply that the enlightened one was no longer casting a shadow, simply because of their utter purity of motivation.

AD: What I consider shadow is self-image and self-concepts, and they are all built into our unconscious, which is why we call it "shadow." It's an emotional reaction, and it's unconscious because our survival reactions are supposed to function in that manner. When an animal is attacked, adrenaline is released and immediately there is a reaction. So why do human beings have that emotional reaction? Because human beings have a survival instinct just like animals. Human beings, however, identify not just with the physical body as "I am"; they also identify with self-image as "I am." So when anybody attacks who I believe I am—my opinions, my way of doing things, my approach—it triggers in me the same survival reaction that ordinarily protects against danger to the body; and with that same intensity, human beings protect their self-image.

AC: So would you say that the goal of spiritual practice would be the eradication of those unconscious tendencies, to no longer cast a shadow?

AD: Exactly. That's the function of yoga.

AC: Could we say that would be, for lack of a better term, a perfected state or perfected condition?

AD: Yes, that would be a perfected condition.

AC: Jungian analyst Marianne Woodman, who regularly teaches at Kripalu, feels that perfection as a concept or as a goal "rapes the soul." She feels, as many others do, that for the human being who is seeking to evolve, the ideal of perfection not only does more damage than good but is, in fact, impossible to achieve.

AD: That is because psychology has been developed in the form of a "healing art." It's a pathological system; Freud's focus was dealing with pathological conditions. Yoga, on the contrary, is about transcending the ego rather than developing the ego. At the same time, psychotherapy may be necessary for people who are emotionally sick; it is appropriate for them to develop a healthy ego because that's the groundwork for transcendence of ego. That is why I always taught that we go from recovery to self-discovery. "Recover" means I want to come to a normal state. However, most "normal" people are sick; most people are schizophrenic or live with internal conflicts, most people have fears or paranoias.

AC: Right. So-called normalcy, from the point of view of enlightenment, is delusion.

AD: Yes, that is why I say that yoga was not developed for the pathological conditions; it was developed for enlightenment. My guru reached that state, and where I am coming from is having known directly from my guru that that state is possible.

AC: Do you think that it's possible for someone to become powerfully enlightened or awakened and yet still have a big ego? I've seen several of my own students, as a result of experiencing profound insights and intensely blissful feelings, awaken to their own deeper nature to such a degree that they were able to speak in a powerful and effective way to others about it. And yet at the same time, their egos and self-importance definitely seemed to grow large as a direct consequence of their experience. But when they were asked to forgo the ego-driven, narcissistic thrill of charisma and personal power that the experience had bestowed upon them, they found it impossible to face into their pride without sacrificing the newly won enormous self-confidence. It seems that in the last twenty years there have been many powerfully awakened masters, extraordinary people who were in touch with and capable of transmitting spiritual experiences to others who also, in retrospect, seemed to have had very big egos because of a narcissistic investment in being the best, the greatest, the truest, the most enlightened master alive. Is the temptation of self-importance almost always a by-product of powerful spiritual transformation? Even though ego death traditionally is the goal of spiritual practice and experience, isn't ego growth, except in very rare cases, almost always the inevitable result? Remarkably, in the end, for most, isn't the temptation of narcissism the "Catch-22" of enlightenment?

AD: What I have noticed is, even in the practice of yoga, when you begin to have the higher spiritual experiences, there is a danger because at every step or evolutionary stage for us all, there are temptations. And one of the first temptations, which you described, is a messiah complex that begins to emerge the moment you have some spiritual experiences. You begin to see the reality, and it gives you a grasp of what is going on. And all of a sudden the ego wants to take over and possess that. There is a tendency already there, and if you don't let go of that, then you are caught there, because that's where prosperity and anything you ask for begins to happen for you. That's the power—your abilities, your spiritual power, begin to manifest into worldly prosperity. And if you get caught there, then you stop there. So at every step of the way toward higher spiritual evolution, there is a surrender that is very basic to the spiritual unfoldment. So I would say, yes, that is very normal and most people compromise at a very, very beginning level of spiritual awakening, and they can't go any further.

AC: So the temptation of personal power is one of the biggest traps of spiritual experience?

AD: The biggest. And it is meant to be that way. What is the last nightmare that happened to Christ or the Buddha? They were given the temptation of having anything they wanted, and they chose wanting nothing. All they wanted was emptiness, wanting nothing for themselves, and therefore, they could transcend that state.

AC: This is something that's not understood, I think, by many people—that inherent in spiritual experience is a temptation of narcissism, a temptation to be the one, the one who knows, the special one.

AD: Right, that is: "I know, and you do not know." If I'm superior to others, if I believe that I know more than you, then I am already setting up a distance and a separation from you. And that separation itself causes competition and jealousy, blame, shame, guilt. These are all the manifestations of that separation. Fear and all those human drives begin to come in. Once I believe that I am better than you, as soon as that takes over, I'm using the Source power to develop resources—more people loving me, more people understanding me, more people respecting me, more prosperity, more power, more knowledge, more skills—better than anybody else. That is a separative force taking over. And that separation is called "ego."

AC: Do you think that many gurus have succumbed to this temptation?

AD: Many gurus. There is no guru who survives without having to go through this. Because this is always the case; that's why we are all born and go through those experiences. Every spiritual seeker goes through this experience.

AC: I'd like to ask you two questions about yoga and ego. Ashtanga yoga, the eight-limbed path, is traditionally taught as a path to liberation or ego transcendence. It seems that it is possible for a gifted spiritual practitioner to be able to attain high levels of practice in yoga, like the last three of the eight limbs—concentration (dharana), meditation (dhyana), and absorption into the Self (samadhi)—but still be weak in the lower or more fundamental limbs of Ashtanga yoga, like the yamas and niyamas, the moral and ethical codes of conduct. Yet it seems to me that liberation or ego transcendence is absolutely dependent upon perfect stabilization in the first two limbs of yoga, even though levels of dhyana and even samadhi can be obtained, because without that stabilization in the yamas and niyamas, the power of that extraordinary attainment would not be grounded on a strong moral and ethical foundation. Without that foundation, obviously the ego could be tempted by the power and the glory experienced in the higher stages. So Yogi Desai, do you think it's possible that, in the end, the first two limbs of Ashtanga yoga, the yamas and niyamas, are ultimately more challenging for yogis than the last three? More challenging even than samadhi itself?

AD: Yes, they are.

AC: Because it seems that many of the greatest masters and yogis of the past twenty years have had more trouble with the first two than they did with some of the higher stages.

AD: That is true. You do not practice the yamas and niyamas one hundred percent until you go through complete liberation. That is the way it is.

AC: So you're saying that it's only with final liberation that the yamas and niyamas can be perfected?

AD: Exactly, and that I know for sure because my guru, the great yogi Bapuji, himself knew that from his practice. He lived in complete seclusion and observed silence for the first twelve years so that he would not be a victim of the external distractions. If you read Muktananda's biography, or that of any great yogi, you see that when they went through the kundalini awakening, the sexual energy becomes more powerful than for any other person in the world, because that's the force that it begins to create for connecting with and penetrating the chakras [psychoenergetic centers in the body]. And if you do not protect yourself, you can be distracted.

AC: Protect yourself, how?

AD: By living in appropriate conditions that will help you to stay centered in your sadhana and not get distracted.

AC: You mean away from temptations, for example?

AD: Away from temptations, yes. That's why my guru lived in silence. He observed silence almost the entire time, and he observed celibacy.

AC: So what you're saying is that in the higher stages of practice, it gets even more challenging; the yamas and the niyamas become even more difficult to practice?

AD: Yes. Right. The issue is energy management. When we all were young, we had a tremendous amount of energy, but this energy was managed by ego, by unconscious forces—we were driven by fears, insecurities, demands, competition, jealousy, anger, fear, blame, shame, guilt—all those forces were managing this vitality and health, and look where we end up. In the path of yoga, consciousness becomes the manager of the energy. So management of the sexual energy is about developing consciousness. And money is also an energy, prosperity is an energy, knowledge is an energy. For most people, when they are growing and learning, they become distracted by all those things. That's what you're talking about. So the yamas and niyamas are the foundation and what one must learn to master in order to manage that energy. And in order to manage that energy, you have to develop consciousness. It must be consciousness rather than ego.

AC: I have another similar question on yoga. You're a master of kundalini yoga. It is said that the awakening of prana [vital energy] in the spiritual practitioner begins a process of purification that over time will naturally cleanse the entire organism, body, mind and soul of all blocks—physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual. You said in your book Working Miracles of Love,"On his return journey to the highest, man must pass successively through each state of consciousness he once passed on his journey away from God. On the path of kundalini yoga, this journey is made by the divine kundalini energy which is aroused from its slumber in the muladhara, the lowest chakra, and raised to the sahasrara, the highest chakra and the seat of cosmic consciousness. As the energy is raised, man passes through experiences and finally transcends each level of consciousness inherent in each chakra. This process is a slow and evolutionary one. The aspirant must progress on the path with great patience, understanding and self-acceptance in order to transcend the ego trappings of each chakra and gain passage to the next chakra or level of consciousness. Although such evolutionary processes are slow, they can be accelerated by awakening the energy of kundalini-shakti [a powerful spiritual energy] through the practice of kundalini yoga. Once activated, the shakti speeds up this process, helping man raise his consciousness to higher and higher levels within a very short time. What otherwise would take lifetimes to accomplish can be accomplished within a very short period, through the potent power of kundalini-shakti."

So what I wanted to ask you is, do you think that it's possible to awaken the primordial, evolutionary energy and, as a result, go through many intense spiritual experiences and powerful awakenings, and yet still leave the ego intact? Over the years I've been teaching, I've met many students who've had their shakti awakened, have experienced many kriyas [spontaneous purifying yogic movements], and have had many powerful experiences through being with teachers of kundalini yoga. But it often seemed that the experiences didn't enlighten them at all. I mean, a lot had happened, but they were still struggling with the ego more or less in the same way they were before they had undergone these experiences. In kundalini yoga, it is said that once the shakti is awakened, purification is going to naturally occur of its own accord. But for most of these people, it didn't seem that the awakening of the prana or the shakti really had had any big purifying effect.

AD: I'm chuckling because I've had the same experience. I have seen my guru-brothers who have also done this sadhana [spiritual practice] and have had the most amazing kundalini experiences—but when I saw their ego, I said, "It's not working quite the same as I would think it should work." And that is why I also have the same question about whether the ego disappears with the most fantastic, extraordinary spiritual experiences, with all kinds of visions. These are the visions of shakti, they are the movement toward the highest center of consciousness, they are the blockages being released, but they are not about final union. When final union happens, only then do you really transcend the ego completely.

Anyway, I don't think that the evolutionary journey should always be judged or verified against the complete annihilation of ego. There could be ego and still be a journey and a progress continuing to work. That is my conclusion. If I see somebody who is doing kundalini yoga and he still has ego, I don't think that that means he has done nothing. I don't judge that way. I think a person can truly evolve and have many powers or siddhis [paranormal powers] and realizations, and ego could still be there. That doesn't deny their growth.

ANDREW COHEN: My next question is about the role of the guru or master as a role model and example. Shortly after I began teaching over thirteen years ago, I opened my eyes one evening after meditating with a room packed full of people who had come to hear me teach. I remember vividly becoming aware of the absolute trust in the eyes of the expectant faces staring at me from all directions and being stunned by the recognition of the incredibly delicate position I was in as a spiritual teacher or guru. The absolute faith in me as a role model and example of what's possible forced me to consider once again the enormous burden anyone who dares to show the way for others automatically assumes. Even more significant is the fact that a true guru is declaring to the world that it is possible to be free in this life, to stop creating karma through acting out of ignorance and selfishness, to liberate oneself from the destructive power of the ego to cause pain and suffering, to be a living embodiment of victory in this life. I've always felt that without living examples, it's very difficult for a seeker to find a willingness in themselves to take that extraordinary leap of trust into the unknown that real transformation is based on. After all, to take the leap that releases us from the clutches of the ego, we have to be convinced that it is possible to succeed. In your case, you had your own guru as a profound example of what was possible. And no doubt his grace and blessings instilled a confidence in you that you also could carry that burden. Yogi Desai, at this time in the modern spiritual world, there's a deep cynicism about what's actually possible to achieve through spiritual practice and experience. One of the big reasons for this occurrence is because of the disillusionment experienced by so many as a result of the well-publicized failings of many of the greatest masters and gurus of our time. And what seems to be happening as a consequence is that, these days, many psychologists have assumed the mantle of spiritual authority that the gurus and spiritual masters held in the recent past. But those therapists make no bold claims, and they do not challenge the ego in the way that only an enlightened master has the authority to do. So what I wanted to ask you is: Without that authority and without the example of a life lived free from fundamental contradiction, how would it be possible for anyone to believe that one can become free in this life and therefore be willing to take the risk of surrendering their ego?

AMRIT DESAI: The enlightened master still lives as a human being. If it is perceived that the master must be total and complete and have finished all his karma, that he is one hundred percent pure and has everything worked out, that system doesn't work. There is a misconception about enlightened masters and what they are or they are not. As long as they are in the human body, and as long as they haven't completely finished and ultimately reached nirvikalpa samadhi, or the highest stage, they will manifest all of human ego and human manifestations of temptations, likes and dislikes—but on a much more refined or conscious level. It is still going to be there. So the theory that somebody should find such a master is very problematic because they will always find some fault, you know?

AC: But don't you think it should be possible, if someone was truly a master, for them to be able to live a life that's free from fundamental contradiction? Because without that example it's very difficult, if not impossible, for the seeker to have the trust to take that leap beyond the ego. Isn't it essential that there are living examples of masters who are able to live their life free from contradiction? In your case, you had your own guru whom you had absolute faith in. Now I'm sure that if you found that there was a disparity between his words and his deeds, it would have instilled some doubt in your own faith and in your own ability to do the work that you've done over all these years. Isn't that true?

AD: Actually, this is true at a certain stage, but there are other stages of growth where more than the perfection of the master, the faith of the disciple, seems to be most important. And this faith can work at a deeper level than even what the master can provide. Because what the disciple gets from a master is more linked to their own faith and trust than to what the master has even achieved sometimes.

AC: Yes, in some cases it can work that way. In my own case, my guru really helped to liberate me through his grace, and it's impossible to repay that debt of gratitude. But at the same time, there was a disturbing discrepancy between the things that he said and the way that he lived. And ultimately, it led to us having to part ways. But you see, that was after that leap had been taken, and in my case, because my own faith in what I had realized was strong, that experience didn't weaken me. Ultimately, it made me stronger and more independent. But the point is: In order for the seeker to get to that place where they'd be willing to take that incredible leap beyond the ego, beyond the known, they have to believe that this master has done it. Most people need living examples. It's the faith in a living example that enables the seeker to trust—it's like jumping off a cliff or jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Because without that trust, if there's any fundamental doubt about the master, then the heart closes down.

AD: The function of the guru is to help the disciple to encounter all his fears and insecurities, and without that there is no progress. But when a guru initiates that, the disciple is bound to have fear and resistance. So if you just keep trust as the foundation of the guru-disciple relationship, or hold the idea that the guru must provide an example of perfection, almost, in fundamental areas, then it's not going to work, because somewhere along the way, the disciple is going to have so many fears that are surfaced by the guru that the disciple would then be tempted to see the weaknesses in the guru.

AC: You said that someone can become a master, but they're still human, and unless they reach this supreme perfected state, for example, like Bapuji, which very few people ever do, the fact that they're incarnated in a body means there's going to be inherent imperfection. But all I'm talking about is being able to live a life free from fundamental contradiction.

AD: Maybe it will be clear if you say what the contradictions are that you consider fundamental.

AC: Well, that there's no contradiction between, for example, the teacher's teaching and the way that they live.

AD: That is a matter of interpretation.

AC: Really?

AD: Yes. Because you know it is a very well-known fact that when a therapist takes a patient to a certain level of connecting with their past traumas, there are areas where they don't want to face what they need to face to break through those blockages, and they will begin to doubt the therapist. The same thing happens with the guru for a disciple. That is why some gurus really test the disciples. There was a guru who actually made sure that the disciples watched him go to a prostitute. He slept there, and the next day he came out and saw who still wanted to be his disciple. They test like that in India. Some of the great gurus have done that. So it is actually the function of a disciple to—you know, in India they say, "To be like a swan that can separate the milk from the water."

AC: Sure, to discriminate. So the disciple doesn't blindly act from gross, conditioned moral judgments that just come from the culture. They must cultivate a deeper understanding. Is that your point?

AD: Right, they have deeper understanding. So in America people may say, "Well if he's like Nityananda, with a big stomach and a big heavy body, how could he be a guru?" And if that is your concept, how can you ever find the right guru? Because there are other concepts that go with this—

AC: No, but I suppose the point is that if Nityananda said, "In order to be serious about spiritual life, you can't eat more than one apple a day," and then he was this big fat guy who was eating enormous amounts of food every day, that would be the problem.

AD: Right, I know it. I know it.

AC: So that would be an example of a fundamental contradiction. That's what I meant.

AD: There always has to be some degree of integrity.

AC: But what I'm saying is, if we're speaking about enlightenment and real spiritual transformation, the seeker, in order to take that leap beyond the mind, has to be able to trust the fundamental integrity of the guru as a human being.

AD: And what I'm saying is that doubt is not created by the guru; it's created by the disciple.

AC: You once said that two weeks before your fall from grace at Kripalu, you prayed to God to take away your ego. And you implied that everything that happened at Kripalu was God's answer to your prayer. I wanted to ask you, how do you see it all now that several years have passed? Was everything that happened at Kripalu God's way of answering your prayer to help you slay your ego?

AD: I would say it is a result of my karma. If I interpret it in such a way that it helped me to move into the spiritual dimension, then I would say yes, it is God's grace. But not without recognizing that there were lessons in it for me.

AC: And what were they?

AD: I needed to let go of the role my fears played in that experience. The main realization was: I needed to let go of whatever fears were holding me back. And that's the main reason why I was born in this life, to particularly see that and let go of the kind of behaviors that were structured around my fears.

AC: Is there anything that you wanted to add to the topic of ego and the spiritual life?

AD: I would like to see the disciple being in a more nonjudgmental space. Because judgments are very likely to come up—

AC: You mean about the teacher?

AD: About the teacher, because the teacher is going to be a button-pusher.

AC: That's their job.

AD: That is his job. So when he pushes the buttons, he becomes the object of attack and denial or gets pushed away.

AC: Yes. It happens to me all the time.

AD: When this happened, it wasn't a surprise to me. If you hear some of my lectures just before that, I was even saying that now you're putting a garland in this guru's hands, but someday you might throw shoes at him.

AC: It's the absolute nature of the relationship. The commitment is so intense that the feelings tend to be extreme, especially if one is really involved.

AD: Then it's even worse. At Kripalu, we had 350 full-time residents for more than fifteen years, living under the one roof, sharing common resources, living simply with the restrictions of a balanced, simple life.

AC: When people come together in this way, everything gets a lot more charged.

AD: And people create their image of the guru and they project it onto him, even if the guru does not claim it.

AC: Project what?

AD: The idea that the guru is very evolved, that he is very highly developed, he is self-realized. They project those images on him because they want perfection in the guru, so they can depend on him. So in order to create dependence, they instill something that is not there. You see, I always claimed that I'm not perfect. I'm a disciple first before I'm a guru. This is just the role that I play for the benefit of transmission of the energy. But I claim nothing; that's what I always say.

AC: Well, you have to claim something; otherwise you wouldn't be able to be a guru. Isn't it true?

AD: I did not claim enlightenment.

AC: I'm not saying you did. But you just said, "I claimed nothing." That couldn't be true because to be a master of yoga and to do the work that you're doing, you obviously have to claim something.

AD: Sometimes gurus delude people by saying, "That's where I am and I'll take you there." That I did not do.

AC: But in the whole path of kundalini yoga, after shaktipat transmission, then one meditates on the form of the guru. You said,"Meditate on me, take refuge in me"—which is, you know, definitely not claiming nothing. That's claiming quite a lot, that's saying, "I'm a vehicle you can use."

AD: Right, that I said. But not as a perfected vehicle. All I claimed is that you can use my role, but not as a perfected being. They put that kind of perfection into it. The guru role has inherent possibilities of creating dependency on it.

AC: But ultimately in the relationship between the guru and the disciple, isn't the goal that there should be nothing between them, no fear and no doubt, so that they could completely merge and become one?

AD: No fear and no doubt is an ultimate condition. That means they have reached the final stage. It is not something that you can expect in an evolving soul relationship, which is the guru/disciple relationship.

AC: But it is the goal.

AD: It is the goal, yes. It is the intention that you move toward that.

AC: And wouldn't the guru want to be able to offer that potential to the aspiring soul? In the role of being the guru, isn't that really what they're offering?

AD: Yes, they're offering that as a potential and giving them the directions and every possible support and method by which they can go, and in that they may have to trust the guru. It's a critical path—to trust the guru. But then what I always said is, "Trust the guru within you first before you can trust the outer guru."

AC: In the guru-disciple relationship, though, doesn't it work the other way around? Isn't it through beginning to trust the outer guru that the disciple begins to experience a liberating fullness within themselves? And doesn't the experience of that fullness within themselves instill in them a sense of confidence and independence that few people ever realize?

AD: It can be either way. It depends on who would want to begin where, which will work for that particular individual. But it is complementary in both. Like if my inner guru is not awakened, I'm not even attracted to an external guru.

AC: That's true.

AD: So that's how it begins. Then, through the practice of spiritual teachings, we awaken more of the inner guru, and we become more deeply connected.

AC: And simultaneously more independent, because the more the inner guru is awakened, there's more trust in oneself, and less dependence.

AD: That is supposed to happen, but that's not what necessarily happens in most cases.

AC: Yes, indeed in my community, I would say that about half the people are interested in a real relationship with me that has the power to cultivate real independence, a relationship beyond fear and doubt, where there's liberating intimacy and extraordinary trust. The other half are interested in depending on me merely as an object that supports their ego. They have no interest, really, in what I'm teaching.

AD: I understand that. That happens at all times. You discover gradually that even in spite of deep dedication, ego or human nature is always acting. But if your intention is correct, everything works. Good things that happen, that works. And wrong that happens, that works too. Because you are learning, using bad experiences for learning. Then bad is not bad; it's a good experience in that sense. That's how I use it. Now all the time, you know, I don't consider anything wrong or bad. It's just an experience.