AC: And what were they?

AD: I needed to let go of the role my fears played in that experience. The main realization was: I needed to let go of whatever fears were holding me back. And that's the main reason why I was born in this life, to particularly see that and let go of the kind of behaviors that were structured around my fears.

AC: Is there anything that you wanted to add to the topic of ego and the spiritual life?

AD: I would like to see the disciple being in a more nonjudgmental space. Because judgments are very likely to come up—

AC: You mean about the teacher?

AD: About the teacher, because the teacher is going to be a button-pusher.

AC: That's their job.

AD: That is his job. So when he pushes the buttons, he becomes the object of attack and denial or gets pushed away.

AC: Yes. It happens to me all the time.

AD: When this happened, it wasn't a surprise to me. If you hear some of my lectures just before that, I was even saying that now you're putting a garland in this guru's hands, but someday you might throw shoes at him.

AC: It's the absolute nature of the relationship. The commitment is so intense that the feelings tend to be extreme, especially if one is really involved.

AD: Then it's even worse. At Kripalu, we had 350 full-time residents for more than fifteen years, living under the one roof, sharing common resources, living simply with the restrictions of a balanced, simple life.

AC: When people come together in this way, everything gets a lot more charged.

AD: And people create their image of the guru and they project it onto him, even if the guru does not claim it.

AC: Project what?

AD: The idea that the guru is very evolved, that he is very highly developed, he is self-realized. They project those images on him because they want perfection in the guru, so they can depend on him. So in order to create dependence, they instill something that is not there. You see, I always claimed that I'm not perfect. I'm a disciple first before I'm a guru. This is just the role that I play for the benefit of transmission of the energy. But I claim nothing; that's what I always say.

AC: Well, you have to claim something; otherwise you wouldn't be able to be a guru. Isn't it true?

AD: I did not claim enlightenment.

AC: I'm not saying you did. But you just said, "I claimed nothing." That couldn't be true because to be a master of yoga and to do the work that you're doing, you obviously have to claim something.

AD: Sometimes gurus delude people by saying, "That's where I am and I'll take you there." That I did not do.

AC: But in the whole path of kundalini yoga, after shaktipat transmission, then one meditates on the form of the guru. You said,"Meditate on me, take refuge in me"—which is, you know, definitely not claiming nothing. That's claiming quite a lot, that's saying, "I'm a vehicle you can use."

AD: Right, that I said. But not as a perfected vehicle. All I claimed is that you can use my role, but not as a perfected being. They put that kind of perfection into it. The guru role has inherent possibilities of creating dependency on it.

AC: But ultimately in the relationship between the guru and the disciple, isn't the goal that there should be nothing between them, no fear and no doubt, so that they could completely merge and become one?

AD: No fear and no doubt is an ultimate condition. That means they have reached the final stage. It is not something that you can expect in an evolving soul relationship, which is the guru/disciple relationship.

AC: But it is the goal.

AD: It is the goal, yes. It is the intention that you move toward that.

AC: And wouldn't the guru want to be able to offer that potential to the aspiring soul? In the role of being the guru, isn't that really what they're offering?

AD: Yes, they're offering that as a potential and giving them the directions and every possible support and method by which they can go, and in that they may have to trust the guru. It's a critical path—to trust the guru. But then what I always said is, "Trust the guru within you first before you can trust the outer guru."

AC: In the guru-disciple relationship, though, doesn't it work the other way around? Isn't it through beginning to trust the outer guru that the disciple begins to experience a liberating fullness within themselves? And doesn't the experience of that fullness within themselves instill in them a sense of confidence and independence that few people ever realize?

AD: It can be either way. It depends on who would want to begin where, which will work for that particular individual. But it is complementary in both. Like if my inner guru is not awakened, I'm not even attracted to an external guru.

AC: That's true.

AD: So that's how it begins. Then, through the practice of spiritual teachings, we awaken more of the inner guru, and we become more deeply connected.

AC: And simultaneously more independent, because the more the inner guru is awakened, there's more trust in oneself, and less dependence.

AD: That is supposed to happen, but that's not what necessarily happens in most cases.

AC: Yes, indeed in my community, I would say that about half the people are interested in a real relationship with me that has the power to cultivate real independence, a relationship beyond fear and doubt, where there's liberating intimacy and extraordinary trust. The other half are interested in depending on me merely as an object that supports their ego. They have no interest, really, in what I'm teaching.

AD: I understand that. That happens at all times. You discover gradually that even in spite of deep dedication, ego or human nature is always acting. But if your intention is correct, everything works. Good things that happen, that works. And wrong that happens, that works too. Because you are learning, using bad experiences for learning. Then bad is not bad; it's a good experience in that sense. That's how I use it. Now all the time, you know, I don't consider anything wrong or bad. It's just an experience.