AC: This is something that's not understood, I think, by many people—that inherent in spiritual experience is a temptation of narcissism, a temptation to be the one, the one who knows, the special one.

AD: Right, that is: "I know, and you do not know." If I'm superior to others, if I believe that I know more than you, then I am already setting up a distance and a separation from you. And that separation itself causes competition and jealousy, blame, shame, guilt. These are all the manifestations of that separation. Fear and all those human drives begin to come in. Once I believe that I am better than you, as soon as that takes over, I'm using the Source power to develop resources—more people loving me, more people understanding me, more people respecting me, more prosperity, more power, more knowledge, more skills—better than anybody else. That is a separative force taking over. And that separation is called "ego."

AC: Do you think that many gurus have succumbed to this temptation?

AD: Many gurus. There is no guru who survives without having to go through this. Because this is always the case; that's why we are all born and go through those experiences. Every spiritual seeker goes through this experience.

AC: I'd like to ask you two questions about yoga and ego. Ashtanga yoga, the eight-limbed path, is traditionally taught as a path to liberation or ego transcendence. It seems that it is possible for a gifted spiritual practitioner to be able to attain high levels of practice in yoga, like the last three of the eight limbs—concentration (dharana), meditation (dhyana), and absorption into the Self (samadhi)—but still be weak in the lower or more fundamental limbs of Ashtanga yoga, like the yamas and niyamas, the moral and ethical codes of conduct. Yet it seems to me that liberation or ego transcendence is absolutely dependent upon perfect stabilization in the first two limbs of yoga, even though levels of dhyana and even samadhi can be obtained, because without that stabilization in the yamas and niyamas, the power of that extraordinary attainment would not be grounded on a strong moral and ethical foundation. Without that foundation, obviously the ego could be tempted by the power and the glory experienced in the higher stages. So Yogi Desai, do you think it's possible that, in the end, the first two limbs of Ashtanga yoga, the yamas and niyamas, are ultimately more challenging for yogis than the last three? More challenging even than samadhi itself?

AD: Yes, they are.

AC: Because it seems that many of the greatest masters and yogis of the past twenty years have had more trouble with the first two than they did with some of the higher stages.

AD: That is true. You do not practice the yamas and niyamas one hundred percent until you go through complete liberation. That is the way it is.

AC: So you're saying that it's only with final liberation that the yamas and niyamas can be perfected?

AD: Exactly, and that I know for sure because my guru, the great yogi Bapuji, himself knew that from his practice. He lived in complete seclusion and observed silence for the first twelve years so that he would not be a victim of the external distractions. If you read Muktananda's biography, or that of any great yogi, you see that when they went through the kundalini awakening, the sexual energy becomes more powerful than for any other person in the world, because that's the force that it begins to create for connecting with and penetrating the chakras [psychoenergetic centers in the body]. And if you do not protect yourself, you can be distracted.

AC: Protect yourself, how?

AD: By living in appropriate conditions that will help you to stay centered in your sadhana and not get distracted.

AC: You mean away from temptations, for example?

AD: Away from temptations, yes. That's why my guru lived in silence. He observed silence almost the entire time, and he observed celibacy.

AC: So what you're saying is that in the higher stages of practice, it gets even more challenging; the yamas and the niyamas become even more difficult to practice?

AD: Yes. Right. The issue is energy management. When we all were young, we had a tremendous amount of energy, but this energy was managed by ego, by unconscious forces—we were driven by fears, insecurities, demands, competition, jealousy, anger, fear, blame, shame, guilt—all those forces were managing this vitality and health, and look where we end up. In the path of yoga, consciousness becomes the manager of the energy. So management of the sexual energy is about developing consciousness. And money is also an energy, prosperity is an energy, knowledge is an energy. For most people, when they are growing and learning, they become distracted by all those things. That's what you're talking about. So the yamas and niyamas are the foundation and what one must learn to master in order to manage that energy. And in order to manage that energy, you have to develop consciousness. It must be consciousness rather than ego.

AC: I have another similar question on yoga. You're a master of kundalini yoga. It is said that the awakening of prana [vital energy] in the spiritual practitioner begins a process of purification that over time will naturally cleanse the entire organism, body, mind and soul of all blocks—physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual. You said in your book Working Miracles of Love,"On his return journey to the highest, man must pass successively through each state of consciousness he once passed on his journey away from God. On the path of kundalini yoga, this journey is made by the divine kundalini energy which is aroused from its slumber in the muladhara, the lowest chakra, and raised to the sahasrara, the highest chakra and the seat of cosmic consciousness. As the energy is raised, man passes through experiences and finally transcends each level of consciousness inherent in each chakra. This process is a slow and evolutionary one. The aspirant must progress on the path with great patience, understanding and self-acceptance in order to transcend the ego trappings of each chakra and gain passage to the next chakra or level of consciousness. Although such evolutionary processes are slow, they can be accelerated by awakening the energy of kundalini-shakti [a powerful spiritual energy] through the practice of kundalini yoga. Once activated, the shakti speeds up this process, helping man raise his consciousness to higher and higher levels within a very short time. What otherwise would take lifetimes to accomplish can be accomplished within a very short period, through the potent power of kundalini-shakti."

So what I wanted to ask you is, do you think that it's possible to awaken the primordial, evolutionary energy and, as a result, go through many intense spiritual experiences and powerful awakenings, and yet still leave the ego intact? Over the years I've been teaching, I've met many students who've had their shakti awakened, have experienced many kriyas [spontaneous purifying yogic movements], and have had many powerful experiences through being with teachers of kundalini yoga. But it often seemed that the experiences didn't enlighten them at all. I mean, a lot had happened, but they were still struggling with the ego more or less in the same way they were before they had undergone these experiences. In kundalini yoga, it is said that once the shakti is awakened, purification is going to naturally occur of its own accord. But for most of these people, it didn't seem that the awakening of the prana or the shakti really had had any big purifying effect.

AD: I'm chuckling because I've had the same experience. I have seen my guru-brothers who have also done this sadhana [spiritual practice] and have had the most amazing kundalini experiences—but when I saw their ego, I said, "It's not working quite the same as I would think it should work." And that is why I also have the same question about whether the ego disappears with the most fantastic, extraordinary spiritual experiences, with all kinds of visions. These are the visions of shakti, they are the movement toward the highest center of consciousness, they are the blockages being released, but they are not about final union. When final union happens, only then do you really transcend the ego completely.

Anyway, I don't think that the evolutionary journey should always be judged or verified against the complete annihilation of ego. There could be ego and still be a journey and a progress continuing to work. That is my conclusion. If I see somebody who is doing kundalini yoga and he still has ego, I don't think that that means he has done nothing. I don't judge that way. I think a person can truly evolve and have many powers or siddhis [paranormal powers] and realizations, and ego could still be there. That doesn't deny their growth.