WIE: The Self Masters often stress that mastery is attained through discipline, willpower and self-control. Jack LaLanne, the ultimate fitness guru, eighty-four years old and not slowing down a bit—

SP: I love Jack.

WIE: He is definitely in this camp. He says that our happiness and well-being are completely in our own hands. Some of the greatest spiritual realizers throughout history, on the other hand, speak about a dimension beyond the power of the individual will, which, when we come into contact with it, gives life greater meaning and purpose. What do you think? Is true happiness found through taking control of one's life and achieving one's goals or is it found through surrendering one's personal desires to a higher will?

SP: Well, I love Jack LaLanne, and I respect the hell out of him but, again, that view is very male: take control, achieve, discipline. I don't buy that at all. And I don't buy the other theory either because you're talking about a higher being and the only higher being that anybody refers to really is the male deity, and I can't do that. Truly it is surrendering to the Mother, but nobody ever says that. But that's what it is. It is surrendering to mother nature, to what is natural and right, to what is perfect until we f— it up. It is not about surrendering to a higher being. That is slavery.

WIE: How do you determine what is natural and right?

SP: It's very simple. Just look at the earth. Look at what happens. Look at the cycles. Look at the truth. What's natural and right is to go with the energy of how it all has to work together. What's natural and right is interconnectedness, not individualism. What is natural and right is respect for the system, not killing the system. What's natural and right is love.

I'll tell you what is natural: it's community and tribes; it is to squat and hover and birth and nurture and love. That's natural. Look at how we're living. Ugh! We have socialized. We have theorized. We have theologianized. We have destroyed it. If you want a higher power, go to the goddamn sun. Just go to the sun—and stop destroying the ozone layer.

WIE: Another way to approach this question is: how much do you feel that your own accomplishments have been the result of your own personal vision and striving, and how much has been the result of some sense of being guided—

SP: None of it. These people think they're spiritual and they talk about direct links to God, but it's all a lie. None of it in my life is based on this, none of it. For me, it's all based on going back to mother nature, honoring its cycles, honoring its natural course, learning more about what that means—and knowing that it is nowhere in our society.

We can't be guided—because we're so far from it. We've so destroyed it. We're so far from that that we can't use it. I mean, Jim Bakker heard from God. What a good job he did! Jimmy Swaggart heard from God. God spoke directly to him. It's just a load of shit, all of it.

We are so far from what is normal and right. Where are we getting our inspiration from? Read anything. Read about Buddhism. Read about Hinduism. Read about their history of bloodshed. Read. And you will see that you can't say that somebody's being guided by any of that because it's drenched in blood. I can't answer this lightly. Because if you enter into something that is entrenched in evil, good can't live. It just can't. To be a Hindu or a Buddhist is the coolest thing ever right now, but do I think it's any different from being a Catholic? No, no, no and no. They're all based on the same lie.

Here's where my inspiration comes from: It comes from the dirt. It comes from the blood. It comes from the cycle of the moon. It comes from the Mother, because without the Mother, there is nothing. You know where it comes from? It comes from the thing that they're the most afraid of, from the vagina. That's where it comes from. That's where all of it comes from, and that's why they have worked so hard to destroy it.

WIE: There have been several pivotal moments when you made a radical decision to change the course of your life. What made these moments of point-of-no-return decision different from other moments when you tried to make a change and didn't succeed?

SP: I think that at a genuine crossroads there is no choice. If it's for real, there really is only one choice. The other is an escape, a momentary, temporary escape. If I could give you a visual, it would be one road that is bright and sunny and another one that's very dark and gloomy—but the dark and gloomy road looks like the right one at the time because it seems easier. It is an illusion. I am acutely aware of the seduction of easy. I've dealt with addiction. I've dealt with a lot of stuff. I now know that when it feels like the easy way, when it feels like the most comforting way, that it is usually the seduction of something that's very wrong and that's going to be damaging. And the other road feels frightening. Something is required of me. I know that I'm going to be required to face something. That's when I know it's the right path. I'm required to live up to it. That's why I love what Ken Wilber said in your magazine, and I'm paraphrasing: the genuine, authentic path does not console, it shatters. I'm going to steal his quote! If it feels like it's going to be shattering, it's the right way. If it feels like it's not going to be so difficult, then I know it's bullshit.

WIE: So what is it that makes these moments a genuine crossroads in the way that you're describing?

SP: The only difference is the truth. It is to face it and to say, "I no longer want to be fat. I don't want to be a drunk. I don't want to be poor. I don't want to be a victim." It's just the truth. It's just the bottom line. There's nothing pretty about it. Toni McNaron wrote a wonderful book called I Dwell in Possibility, and in it she wrote a line, and I'm not quoting directly, but basically what it said was: I find myself here in my life by my own hand and it is completely and absolutely unacceptable. It's not a pretty moment.

WIE: How do you help other people to come to the same point?

SP: By begging them just to say what is. Because when you just say what is, you give it life. We spend all our time dodging and justifying and excusing and being lazy. I beg you to give it voice. Say, "I don't want to be a drunk," and all of a sudden, you'll get up and do the work. Let's say it together. Stop dancing around it. Stop trying to find a way out.

WIE: Telling the truth?

SP: Yes! I am the only person who says, "You are fat!" The other day somebody said to me, "Everybody in my family looks this way. It's a genetic problem." And I said, "One percent of the population has a metabolic set-point disorder. The other ninety-nine percent of us are overfat and unfit because we eat a ton of fat, because we don't move, we're lazy, and we live a lifestyle that makes us overfat, diseased, unfit, pimply, greasy and disgusting. You are fat because you eat a ton of fat." And she went, "You're right. I do." And I said, "Good. Now let's talk. What are you really eating?" I don't sit in malls and cry with these women. That is insulting to me. That's not what I do. I'm not a clown. When I said, "Let's talk," do you know what happened? Together we came to the truth. "I am eating more fat than you could ever imagine," she said. I said, "Good, then there's a solution. You can change it. You're taking the action of eating it. Then you can take the action of not eating it." She went, "Ahh." And I said, "Now you've got a solution. But here's the problem. Now that you know what the solution is, you have to be responsible." Do you know what the word "responsibility" means? Think about it. It's being responsible for our ability. So I said to her, "You're not capable of putting a goddamn piece of fudge down? Are your limbs controlled by puppeteers? Come on!" And you know what? We roared with laughter. Because it's a funny visual.

So what makes the difference is that I make it "gutteral," the raw truth. And when we speak it, it gives it life. When we really see it, we don't want it. So what we do is we say it together. Come on ladies, let's just say it: "I'm a fat pig! I'm as big as a house!" I say, "You think that you look good? You don't look good, man. I've been naked at 260 pounds. It ain't pretty. Chunky, cottage cheese fat—it's disgusting." I'm the only one who talks about it. Fat is disgusting. Who else have you ever heard say that on national TV? Nobody.

That's ballsy. But it's the truth. And this "We have a right to be fat. Let's demand larger sizes and love ourselves" crap? Sorry. I'm not going to pay my tax dollars to build bigger seats because you're a fat pig. Everybody sugarcoats it because nobody wants to offend. I've said this over and over again: You can be fat and love yourself. You can be fat and have a great damn personality. You can be fat and sew your own clothes. But you can't be fat and healthy. You may be fat and be happy, but you're going to be dead.

WIE: Anthony Robbins could be called a Self Master in the sense that he seems to set very high standards, and appears to be meeting these standards in many areas of life. One of the most powerful things about his work as a motivational speaker is the fact that he seems to be walking his talk. The question that I wanted to ask you is this: As a motivational speaker, do you feel an obligation to live your life as an example of the ideas and principles you speak about?

SP: First of all—have you listened to his tapes, have you heard the arrogance? When you have to yell, "I'm the richest person on the planet," you're not. Because if you were, you wouldn't have to say it. When somebody introduces themselves by reading their own credits, doesn't that make you want to vomit? Do you not think that's gross? I mean, just on a personal level, woman to woman here, I don't open my tapes by saying, "Do you know that I have three New York Times bestsellers?" I don't do that. I don't give a shit. I'm telling you the truth. I don't care. It's nice to make money. It's really nice to be rich instead of poor. It's really nice for somebody to pay you a million dollars to do something, there's no question about that. But that's not what I want, and that's not what I tout. That's not what I put forward as what I want to be recognized for. I think that's very arrogantly male and gross.

But to answer your question: I do not call myself a "motivational speaker." I'm a speaker. I speak for a living. I speak everywhere. I've been speaking since age two. But I am not a "motivational" speaker. And I do not see myself as an example to anybody for anything. I think that is arrogance at its best. That is obnoxious; that is so offensive, I can't even tell you. You know what I am? I'm a forty-one-year-old mother of three, schlepping through the day every day. I'm just a housewife. I am nothing more. And nothing less. I am just a mom. I am a woman. I am a daughter. I am a sister. And all I'm trying to do is get to the truth and do it a little better every day. And I don't pretend to do anything but.

WIE: What if we take it out of that domain and talk about simply being a role model?

SP: No, I would never call myself a role model. Listen, nothing any of us says is original. Do you think any of these people made any of this crap up? It all—

WIE: But you're a role model to your kids, right?

SP: I'm not a role model to my kids. They're a role model to me. You want to hear this? My kids have taught me more about love and about honesty and about sharing and decency. My children have taught me how to live. I am not their role model. Any parent who thinks they're a role model to their child is a jerk. No, that's not what parenting is. We're supposed to sit back and learn. I don't think that way, I don't live that way and I don't like people who do. They're not people who come over to my house for dinner.

What I am, honest to God—and this is a very powerful and true statement—I am a housewife who figured it out and started talking with other housewives. Unbelievable! I just started talking to other women. That's all I did! So, no, I do not consider myself a role model, and I think anybody who does is an arrogant fool. You'd better be real cool before you say that because you'd better not have a skeleton in your closet, you'd better be clean, you'd better be able to pick up that rock and throw it in that goddamn glass house. What a horrible way to live! Yuck. No, I just get up and I try and do it better every day. And when I don't, I talk about it. And when I do, I talk about it. But I don't just talk about it when I do.

WIE: I'd like to take this a step further. You've transformed your life in terms of dealing with obesity and alcoholism. You've written and spoken at length about your experience and have inspired many, many people. What do you think it would do to people if suddenly, the next time they see you, you're three hundred pounds again?

SP: But that would never happen because I would come out and say, "Oh, my God, look at what is happening!" I would talk about it. My body is changing. I'm forty-one years old. My body's different than it was two and a half years ago. I just did a speech where I got up and said, "Jesus, no matter how many bloody leg lifts I do, man, these thighs, they just don't look the same." And the women raise their hands and say, "Yes, and you wouldn't believe how much your skin changes." It's fabulous! It's alive and honest. That's enlightenment. The enlightenment is in the honesty and the discussion and the working it out together. It's called "relationship"—not leadership.

My life can stand on its own. But that only frees me to have relationship. But you can't have relationship in bullshit or when you're pretending to be the master or when you're leading it. That's not a relationship. That's called "a man."

WIE: So you don't feel any obligation to the people who come to hear you?

SP: If I felt an obligation, I'd be out of this business so fast you don't know. This is not an obligation. This is love. When it becomes an obligation, man, it's a big game, isn't it? Obligation isn't what love is about. Obligation isn't what genuine energy is about. Nobody does anything for any length of time under an obligation. I feel there's only one place I am obligated. It is to what's in my head. I'm not obligated to the women I stand with—not in front of, but with. I'm not even obligated to my children. The only thing I'm obligated to is my responsibility to keep it all awake. That's all. If I felt obligated to this in any way, I'd be out of business in two minutes.

You absolutely see that at my talks. Only because they are so unchoreographed. There's no formula, no overhead projector, no set, no buzzwords, none of that crap. It's off-the-cuff and one hundred percent raw-to-the-bone honest for two and a half hours. And the women in the audience know it. That's where the enlightenment is, that's where the love is, right there. Because they just go, "Holy shit, I can't believe you did that!" And do you know what they can't believe I did? It's to tell the truth. It's you and me, sitting down talking in our living room. There just happen to be five thousand people there. And you know, if you don't like it, get out. Leave. I'm not going to change it. Yeah, it really is that raw. I must sound mad, but it's true.

WIE: What do you think are the most important qualities in a human being who has achieved enlightenment?

SP: To know that they're not enlightened. To know that you can never achieve anything fully. That's the most perfect place to be. To know that there is always more. The more you achieve, the more interest it should spark to go further, because there's so much—and I don't mean monetarily and I don't mean in society. This whole experience of living is so rich! The gift is to get to a place so that you can springboard to the next. It's never an end result. It's always the process. It's never the goal. It's always the journey. It's to know that you'll never get there. It's fabulous! Then you just throw your hands up in the air and go, "Ahhh, God, I want it all!" To know that you will never be finished. That's when ego subsides. That's when arrogance dies. That's when joy takes over.

WIE: What are you still trying to achieve on your own path to self-mastery?

SP: Everything, everything, everything! I want to know everything. I want the privilege of being a crone. I want to have ten kids. I want to paint. I want to do music. I want to dance like you've never seen a dancer. I want to write something meaningful. I want to love bigger than I ever thought possible. I want to embrace everything. Everything! I haven't even begun. I'm in the infancy of having the privilege of living this life. I'm still in utero. Oh God! Just wait until I'm born!