AC: Could you say more about this distinction between sexuality and genitality?

TK: In celibacy, the sexual energy—which should never be repressed—is directed by the practice of chastity toward the right use of that energy according to our state of life, which for celibates is to help build human relationships and communities through service, friendship, understanding, cooperation and other similar virtues. The sexual energy is transmuted in this way into an ever greater energy in service to others and in the search for God. Otherwise, celibacy can become simply a physical achievement and hence a source of pride. It's not an end in itself, in other words, but a way of life that has to make God's love visible in the community or wherever one decides to live the celibate life.

AC: Judging from your description, the celibate's sphere of interest seems almost implicitly broader than that of a married individual. Yet you've also said that neither married life nor celibate monastic life is inherently superior, and that in either case what's really most important is one's motivation.

TK: Exactly. And not only one's motivation but the perseverance in that motivation through the purification of the dark side so that—

AC: The dark side?

TK: Purification of one's innermost being rather than just biologically or physically because, without that inner purification, celibacy is an external observance rather than an interior practice that supports authentic transformation.

AC: It sounds as if one who was fully committed to undergoing this process of transformation would in a sense be married to God. Wouldn't one's attention therefore be liberated in such a way that one could have no special friendships or intimate relationships but would rather love all selflessly?

TK: Yes, chastity enhances and extends the power to love; it enables us to perceive the sacredness of everything that is, especially other people. But to reach that one has to go through a process away from the experience of conventional intimacy with others and toward another kind of intimacy which, while it respects everyone's uniqueness, loves them not for any physical purpose of one's own. And as a consequence of that, one respects the dignity of other persons and couldn't possibly use them for sexual or emotional fulfillment. Now this doesn't exclude friendship, which is very important in supporting a celibate commitment, but it does imply a discipline that filters out of that growing intimacy with another the genital attraction that may be there, and which is perfectly normal if it is there. But one ought not to conclude from this that a genuinely spiritual friendship must exclude all warmth or emotion; it is only those excessive marks of affection that lead to deep sensuality or acting out that have to be sacrificed, not friendship itself. In fact one needs friends to support one's commitment to celibacy; otherwise one may fall into loneliness or some kind of self-seeking that is almost narcissistic. This is one of the hazards in the celibate commitment.

AC: What are some of the other hazards?

TK: Celibacy is not a commitment one should take lightly, and there are different temptations along the way. Sexual attraction is one thing in adolescence and another thing altogether in adulthood, where procreation becomes important. Then, in the midlife crisis, a whole new aspect of our sexuality emerges that has to do with the temptation to return to the unfinished relationships of one's youth or regrets about not having experienced certain things before one became celibate. As a result the temptation to depart from one's commitment is also very strong at that time. And even in old age, one finds that that loneliness is still present. So because the sexual energy lasts all our lives, a lifetime commitment to celibacy is bound to include periods that are extremely difficult, and the important question is: To what degree has this energy been transmuted and transformed by discipline, service to others and devotion to God, so that in those moments when the attraction of sexual satisfaction is extremely strong, there's enough inner strength to resist it?

In the Christian tradition, especially in those denominations that emphasize the love of God or specifically the love of Jesus Christ, "friendship" is the model for a relationship with God that moves from the superficiality of mere acquaintance to a degree of friendliness, based on years of hanging out together, that at a certain point demands a true commitment. This kind of commitment is characteristic of any friendship whether it's human or divine, and it's in that moment that one begins to consider whether one's devotion to celibacy is truly a lifetime commitment to God or only a temporary one. And one should have plenty of time to think this decision through because of its deep psychological, social and spiritual consequences. There's a whole mystique, you might say, to a lifelong commitment. It's very different from a temporary commitment, even though that's an extremely useful one for someone to pass through, as you evidently teach in your community. It's a wonderful way of getting a clear idea of what sexuality is and whether you want to renounce it for life; and as I said, it would be a great mistake to make that decision lightly or without a good period of time to practice it first on a temporary basis.

AC: There have certainly been too many people, I think, who have taken that decision too lightly and then lived to regret it.

TK: Yes. And I would think that nobody really has the power to do this without the grace of God; whether you think of it as grace or some other kind of force, it's like the twelve steps of AA—the second step, isn't it?—"We found out that we were absolutely powerless of ourselves." And that's one of the great benefits of the celibate commitment: You find out fairly soon that it's not going to be easy. There is a higher power—we call it God in the Christian tradition—and His grace doesn't come in the abstract but in the form of a community and a model of commitment to encourage us in difficult times, a special opportunity for spiritual retreat or study or sometimes even psychological instruction. But even so, not everybody is humanly equipped for a celibate commitment. Certainly I would never recommend it for someone who has a serious personality disorder or a long history of promiscuity or some other kind of neurotic problem; such things should certainly be treated before one makes a commitment as serious as this one.

AC: I agree with you that, through the practice of celibacy, one gets an experience of how extremely powerful the sexual force is—an experience that's very different than if one were never to undergo a period of prolonged abstinence.

TK: Absolutely, and it's for that reason that I think it would be an enormously valuable experience for both women and men, especially at an earlier learning period in their young adulthood, because really most young people are no more ready for a marriage commitment than they are for a monastic commitment.

AC: You're right about that.

TK: It really takes some life experience to be able to handle the responsibilities that that commitment requires. And a celibacy commitment, similarly, has its own set of responsibilities that need to be practiced and tested humbly.

AC: What would you say is the greatest joy of the practice?

TK: Loving God! And hoping always that that love will increase and enable us to surrender ourselves more and more completely, body, mind and spirit—totally: conscious, unconscious, every level of our being. This is my view of what celibacy is all about. Its fulfillment is certainly going to take some time, and there are going to be some rough spots, and not everybody's going to make it; there are going to be some failures. Anybody who's been through those dark nights will not judge anybody's failures because he or she knows how difficult that commitment is. In the "dark night" of St. John of the Cross, who is one of the great teachers in Catholic mysticism, there are described three great trials or temptations, one of which he called the "spirit of fornication," in which there are enormous and continual temptations to sexual activity or to leaving the celibate commitment. And it's in that intense struggle that the virtue of chastity is tested; the renunciate is pounded by temptation to the depths of his soul until he becomes really stable in the face of all temptation.

AC: The beautiful way you're speaking makes me curious to know if you ever come together with your brother monks just to share your experience of the practice, for the purposes of support and investigation, as we are doing here.

TK: No, not very often. Very rarely, in fact. They do that in the first few years of monastic life, along with studying the various other commitments that are also involved. But later on, to tell you the truth, you don't see much of that—and I think it would be a good idea.

AC: I've always found this question very interesting because over the years that I've been teaching, often my celibate students—if we've been in India, for example—would want to get together with other monks and nuns from, say, the Buddhist or Hindu traditions, just to speak together about the practice of celibacy and its relationship to the pursuit of liberation or, as you would say, a pure heart. And it's been fascinating to discover that very few practitioners have had much to say or have even been particularly interested in talking because quite often, it seems, the practice of celibacy is not accompanied by any kind of active investigation or inquiry.